Dark Era: The Wolf and the Raven

[nofather]

Re: Iron Slave - I apply the 'rule of cool' to this. It doesn't matter if the car has gas or not - the Uratha can make it go. How? If you actually need to answer that, it's powered by the trickle of Essence and the quickening of the spirit slumbering within the vehicle. An Uratha using Iron Slave on a rusted our husk of a car could still make it function and leave ignorant human observers baffled afterwards. Otherwise, how are you going to invoke the horror aspects after chasing the prey into a junkyard, where every headlight appears to be an eye, and the wrecks seem to glare malevolently at the prey?

As for 'engineering' and 'mechanical vehicle', boats, chariots, wagons etc are all pieces of engineering. They're all mechanical. They have parts that do things. Even if the hull is largely an unmoving piece, they have sails and masts and tills and possibly oars. If anything, it would be more relevant to ask if modern cars and engineering count as mechanical, given how many of their functions are now controlled and operated by electronics.

So, Uratha vikings in boats - yes, they can inhabit, steer and move their vessels in the absence of wind. Uratha-supported raiding parties are terrifying and outpace their human counterparts. They appear without warning on becalmed days when nothing should approach. They defy the storm that should keep them from the shore. They're terrifying hunters. Don't you agree this is as it should be?

Same in Roman times. If the horse drawing the wagon goes lame or dies, the Uratha have another option. (Actually they have a few, but how many want to live down the taunts and jeers of their pack after pulling the wagon in Urshul form?) Even if the horse isn't lame, yes the Gift would give influence over the horse.

They key here as I said above is to look at the whole as technology. Not the individual parts. The forge has fire and steel, but you don't view them as individual units - it's a forge. The Gift can't influence fire when it's just fire, but it can influence the forge. Similarly, the Gift can't influence fire when it's a forest fire, but Shutdown can dim the light of a campfire or the torches, because that's technology. The technology is important, and (repeating myself) it's a shining example of how forward-thinking and adaptable the Iron Masters were and are. There's a reason they're such a successful tribe.

Very well said. Rule of cool, or Essence, definitely seems to be the way to go about it. Though I have to admit the old horror trope of the car not starting is probably a lot scarier when you're inside the car. But I suppose it's something that could be replicated by other spirits of technology or supernaturals with powers that affect them.

Good point about technology versus the individual parts.

[Seidmadr]

Shadow maybe not the belief itself ( there is not Jesus or Thor Spirit ) but it follows emotions and decisions. And those are very different in Vikings and Christian culture of that Era. For example, just see how pious Middle Ages Christians are and how they Heavenly Virtues are reflected in everyday life. I bet there are many 7 Virtuous spirits in Christdom, making important choir in Shadow. Vikings, on the other hand, are very feisty and power seeking. It must lead to different Shadow's ecologies at North and mainland Europe. Not too mention that Spirits would emulate angels and lesser gods in image at least in both cultures.

Exactly It follows the emotions. There will be spirits of Faith and Devotion on both sides. Why should the spirits care exactly what people have faith in? Why should they care what they are devoted to? It is - as you said - the emotion that matters.
But even so, these spirits will be drowned out by the nature spirits. Spirits of disease, spirits of fear, war, hunger, anger, despair, joy, pride, and everything else that rises from human lives.

Because we live now in very secular times - religion in modern Europe and USA has much lesser take on our lives than 1000 years ago, in Middle Ages. Shadow reflects actions and emotions - and those will be very different than those in modern days. So it shape diffrent spirits.

Yes. We also live in times when we don't have to spend winter fearing that there will be a late spring, and people will starve. Or late frost nights, and people will starve. Or drought, and people will starve. Or disease will strike, and people will die. Or that this happens to a neighbour, and in desperation, they try to take what is yours, and people will die.
This is a vastly different setting, and I'm quite certain that religion is relatively low on the differences.

In North - yes, Bale Hounds started to be later problem. Because North become Christian later on. Year ago I made whole topic why I think Bale Hounds are result of extensive Christanization - and especial it's fight with “paganism”. Check it out on details.

Werewolves were never considered as anything other than monsters and/or foreigners in Scandinavia.
Wolves were feared and hated, people who turned into wolves are monsters who deserve no mercy.

I get this - but I think that this other religion lead to other Shadow in those places sacred by each culture. And this leads to have “alien guardians” in those places. Different spirits. And so - different Numinas, and powers.

I simply can't agree here. They might take different appearances, but devotion is devotion, and faith is faith. The trappings change, but why should spirits care? It's the emotion behind it that brings in Essence.

And this is one of crucial things that different Norse and Christian Shadow.

Ok, you have to explain what you mean here, because I simply don't get it.

But it’s culture clash. Norse and Christian werewolves are risen in different cultures - they will be different. We have Norse Uratha shown in chapter. We do not have shown Middle Ages Christian ones and their Shadow that our Vikings are sailing too.

The British Isles, which this chapter focuses on, isn't that different. The Irish and the Picts were both warrior cultures. And the Anglo-Saxons were close enough to the Norse, culturally speaking, that they could understand each other's languages. This was drifting by the time of the early Viking raids, as they were picking up the culture of the Romano-British.

You are right - but this religions has other implication in CoD universe and it’s realms or monsters - and those will have difference on riding and war against them. So when question “What is different between Norse and Christians as humans” is “Not very much”. However answer on “What are difference between Norse and Christian lands in CoD universe” is “A lot, they are different ecologies”.

I don't think they are. But unless a developer steps in on one side or the other, I think we'll be flinging opinion back and forth on each other on this point. (Again).

But overall, I don't think there ever has been any indications that faith shapes the local shadow, anywhere in CofD. Shaping the astral? Sure! That's the place for thoughts. But the Shadow? I can't see I recall something like that.

Other smaller problems I have with chapter as written:

Where are Úlfhéðnar? The "wolf skins", wolf equivalent to berserkers. We have úlfhethnar in Blood Talons section, but I could not found is it the same as this much more recognized phrase.

Yes, Wolf-hides would've been really great to have in the chapter as well.
I also can't help but thinking that many Wolf-blooded cults would turn into Skinchangers, in order to emulate their Changed relatives and packmates.

Ergi connect only to the passive sex - yes, it is a bit offensive for LGBT people. I understand the word count limits, but if you mention this in Bone Shadows section, you should point to broader implications of Ergi. To qutote by myself from other topic:

Yes. It's offensive. But that's how the culture was back then. People change, culture change. The old Norse had very strong gender-roles, and for a man to take up female things was... discouraged. The side-bar is oversimplified, I admit, but it does get the point across.

[wyrdhamster]

Will omit "faith an Christianity shape different Shadow thing" - as you pointed, it will be only exchange of opinions until developers will go in to it.

But on Ergi Condition I will discuss matter, as bisexual male in homosexual relationship from last five years.

Yes. It's offensive. But that's how the culture was back then. People change, culture change. The old Norse had very strong gender-roles, and for a man to take up female things was... discouraged. The side-bar is oversimplified, I admit, but it does get the point across.

No, it does not get point across. As was pointed by Paradim before - Ergi was not only passive homosexuality. Cowardliness is other example of Ergi behavior. There were others, if I remember my simple Google research on the topic. I think that Condition should show larger problem, not only targeting homophobia in it.

[Seidmadr]

Will omit "faith an Christianity shape different Shadow thing" - as you pointed, it will be only exchange of opinions until developers will go in to it.

But on Ergi Condition I will discuss matter, as bisexual male in homosexual relationship from last five years.



No, it does not get point across. As was pointed by Paradim before - Ergi was not only passive homosexuality. Cowardliness is other example of Ergi behavior. There were others, if I remember my simple Google research on the topic. I think that Condition should show larger problem, not only targeting homophobia in it.

Homosexual acts was, however, one of the main things called out for being unmanly. Other things are, such as cowardice and the practice of Seidh, but homosexuality the most common. Yes, the sidebar could've been a bit more sensitive, but it gets the point across. I don't see a problem here.

[ArcaneArts]

Arcee, I'm going to start calling you Nate. He tries to slip one of those into every game session we have

Since the only Nate I know is the mastermind of the Leverage team, I fully accept this.

EDIT: Seid has it right. Listen to him.

[wyrdhamster]

As to wording thing - Players are assumed to understand complex notions only by quick description of what blót, seidr or vargr, but remembering that Mani and Sól from the text are local names for Luna nad Helios is too much for casuals?

[nofather]

It explains what blót and seidr and vargr are.

You've made your point and what you don't like and think should be changed, both here and elsewhere, are you just trying to harass now?

[M.Murray]

The reason I emphasised the "passive homosexuality" bit was because it's directly related to Seidr; it's assumed that any practitioner has been the passive party in sex with a supernatural creature in exchange for these secrets, and while that is (in Viking culture) acceptable for women, it isn't for men. As a gay guy, I was conscious of the wording. Apparently I didn't choose the best phrasing, though I've shown it to a couple of people since the PDF release and they felt it was fine.

Regarding the Tech Gift, I can see Bunyip's point, and that's definitely a cool way to interpret the Gift. I wanted to present the option, and it was alluded to in my brief. It's up to the players and the ST to decide which version to use. There was certainly a lot more in the way of machinery and mechanical industry in Rome. I was actually going to write a merchant lodge based on the concept of money as a tool but it took far more space to elaborate than I was comfortable giving it; Muspell worked better and seemed more appropriate with about half the words.

[wyrdhamster]

The reason I emphasised the "passive homosexuality" bit was because it's directly related to Seidr; it's assumed that any practitioner has been the passive party in sex with a supernatural creature in exchange for these secrets, and while that is (in Viking culture) acceptable for women, it isn't for men. As a gay guy, I was conscious of the wording. Apparently I didn't choose the best phrasing, though I've shown it to a couple of people since the PDF release and they felt it was fine.

Wording maybe is not the bad as on itself - but focusing only on homosexuality is, in my POV. Adding cowardliness and maybe other ( not sure is this there ) type of "bad behavior" to Ergi sources would mark this as more global Viking culture problem than strict homophobia. Also, much easier is to show hetero male players usage of Ergi when they characters are accused of being coward in battle than getting magical powers from the sex with other male, from my game experience.

Not white-washing the problem - only showing wider range of it.

[maryshelly]

I was pleasantly surprised by this setting. I was not expecting too much but it turned out to be possibly my favorite out of all of Dark Eras. Here were some cool take away's that I got out of it.

1/ I like settings in Medieval cities and towns because they are small and densely populated by today's standards. In a modern city like Chicago it is possible for supernatural creatures to hide among the millions of people who live there, but in a medieval city of only a few thousand, in a much smaller area, the power brokers are literally only a few hundred meters from each other and cannot run so there is a sense of claustophobia. This was one of the reasons I was hoping for a "Wild West" setting but the viking settlements will do nicely. Having rival packs in a small town like Dublin or a viking settlement in Iceland makes the campaign more tense and personal. The Vampire Requiem Chroniclers book had a chapter devoted to Bottle Campaigns which I liked and can be applied here. In fact, there is the possibility that some scenes can be had on a viking boat when crossing the Atlantic. Imagine being at sea in the middle of nowhere and then realizing that some of the Rat hosts are on board...

2/ It was interesting to read that silver inlays were actually part of Viking blades. It makes sense that Vikings would display silver as a sign of wealth (medieval bling). In this case it is possible to wound a werewolf if the blade dug deep. I wonder how you could house rule this? Maybe that an exceptional success with a silver inlay blade would cause aggravated damage? How about if a blade wounds a werewolf every other (rounded down) wound is considered silver damage.

3/ Since we have Werewolves and Sin Eaters, it would be interesting to see a Viking hunter compact. Nothing would be more badass than a group of viking werewolves fighting a group of viking hunters. I could also imagine the practice of "Silvering" weapons in which a group of hunters go to the forge, melt an ingot of silver, and dip their blades into it before going to hunt wolves. Maybe a rule for that could be that the blade will cause the first ( or more) strike to cause silver damage after which the silver falls off. Anyways, it would make for epic storytelling

4/ Having adventures in the desolation of places like Greenland and Iceland would be pretty cool. I would imagine Storm Lords traveling to these places of extreme cold and desolation to hunt down claimed that have turned into dragons and giants (Beast crossover???). Using the cold weather as a possible asset and overcoming it.

5/ Other ideas could be to have the forsaken travel to lands with native populations (such as Greenland and Newfoundland), only to see the natives already have Pure overlords. This would be an excellent way to have werewolves waging war on each other using human proxies.

Overall, it was a great chapter. Please make lots more.

[Lyrics Of War]

Werewolves were never considered as anything other than monsters and/or foreigners in Scandinavia.
Wolves were feared and hated, people who turned into wolves are monsters who deserve no mercy.

This is actually incorrect. If you are referring to the notion of the Varg nomenclature, they used to call outlaws wolves but they were not the werewolves. In fact I would argue the concept of werewolves in Icelandic and Viking age scandinavia would be considered more of a norm amongst the warrior culture. Case in point, Kveldulf from Egil's Saga.

"Ulf is said to have been a very clever farmer. he made a habit of getting up early to inspect what his farmhands or craftsmen were doing and to keep an eye on his cattle and cornfields. Sometimes he would talk to people who were in need of his advice, for he was shrewd and always to make useful suggestions. But every day towards evening he would grow so bad tempered that few people dared even address him. he always went to sleep early in the evening and woke up early in the morning. People claimed he was a shape-shifter and they called him Kveldulf (Evening wolf)." Sagas of the Icelanders, from deluxe penguin classics page 9.

The familiarity with which it is addressed leads me to believe it is considered a norm. Not only that, but the man was a local chieftain, and only left Norway after a rather nasty falling out with king Harald Fine hair. Another fine example might be king Harald himself using, in his own boat, only berserkers and Ulfhednar.

More to the point, the entire 3rd chapter in 'Werewolf Histories' (a scholarly book compiled by a Danish anthropologist) discusses in great detail the animal warriors of norse society.

Not to go complete scholar over here, but my proposed masters thesis is on the subject. I would argue that peoples dislike of Berserkers and their ilk stems not from a fear of shapeshifters in general but from behavioral issues. A masters of viking age history from university of Iceland (her name escapes me) did her thesis about these warriors suffering from ptsd.


As far as the content of the chapter goes, I haven't read as much as i'd like, but from what I've seen its ok. Granted folk like me aren't the target audience, more from novices and gamers who do not understand or study the culture, and to that extent it is a fantastic addition. I was curious to see how they'd handle the whole worshipping fenris deal but it looks like the solution was simpler then I imagined, having come from the apocalypse fenrir tribe before. If anything the real issue I have is I believe it simply isn't large enough to cover all the material I want, and that isn't the fault of the author so much as the limitations imposed upon him. I imagine if they released a proper dark ages book for chronicles then things would be different, but as is I'm currently happy. Good job.

As an addition to this, I see people arguing about how terrible x was vs y (ergi comes to mind). I would caution you from applying modern liberal thought patterns to a thousand year gone culture. It doesn't help anyone, beyond putting a bias one way or another as far as how one thinks a story should go. You wouldn't take an abraham lincoln style stance on freeing slaves if you lived in late 300's Rome would you? -fun fact to that, the slaves at the time were blonde haired blue eyed goths. Was considered fashionable to own a Tuetonic person.-

[Seidmadr]

This is actually incorrect. If you are referring to the notion of the Varg nomenclature, they used to call outlaws wolves but they were not the werewolves. In fact I would argue the concept of werewolves in Icelandic and Viking age scandinavia would be considered more of a norm amongst the warrior culture. Case in point, Kveldulf from Egil's Saga.

"Ulf is said to have been a very clever farmer. he made a habit of getting up early to inspect what his farmhands or craftsmen were doing and to keep an eye on his cattle and cornfields. Sometimes he would talk to people who were in need of his advice, for he was shrewd and always to make useful suggestions. But every day towards evening he would grow so bad tempered that few people dared even address him. he always went to sleep early in the evening and woke up early in the morning. People claimed he was a shape-shifter and they called him Kveldulf (Evening wolf)." Sagas of the Icelanders, from deluxe penguin classics page 9.

The familiarity with which it is addressed leads me to believe it is considered a norm. Not only that, but the man was a local chieftain, and only left Norway after a rather nasty falling out with king Harald Fine hair. Another fine example might be king Harald himself using, in his own boat, only berserkers and Ulfhednar.

More to the point, the entire 3rd chapter in 'Werewolf Histories' (a scholarly book compiled by a Danish anthropologist) discusses in great detail the animal warriors of norse society.

Not to go complete scholar over here, but my proposed masters thesis is on the subject. I would argue that peoples dislike of Berserkers and their ilk stems not from a fear of shapeshifters in general but from behavioral issues. A masters of viking age history from university of Iceland (her name escapes me) did her thesis about these warriors suffering from ptsd.


As far as the content of the chapter goes, I haven't read as much as i'd like, but from what I've seen its ok. Granted folk like me aren't the target audience, more from novices and gamers who do not understand or study the culture, and to that extent it is a fantastic addition. I was curious to see how they'd handle the whole worshipping fenris deal but it looks like the solution was simpler then I imagined, having come from the apocalypse fenrir tribe before. If anything the real issue I have is I believe it simply isn't large enough to cover all the material I want, and that isn't the fault of the author so much as the limitations imposed upon him. I imagine if they released a proper dark ages book for chronicles then things would be different, but as is I'm currently happy. Good job.

As an addition to this, I see people arguing about how terrible x was vs y (ergi comes to mind). I would caution you from applying modern liberal thought patterns to a thousand year gone culture. It doesn't help anyone, beyond putting a bias one way or another as far as how one thinks a story should go. You wouldn't take an abraham lincoln style stance on freeing slaves if you lived in late 300's Rome would you? -fun fact to that, the slaves at the time were blonde haired blue eyed goths. Was considered fashionable to own a Tuetonic person.-

Ah. So that happened later then? Apologies.
In the area where I live (southern Sweden), being turned into a Werewolf was something that happened when you angered a witch (especially Finnish or Russian witches), and there are folk stories about entire villages going to flame out suspected werewolves.
Then again, these woods have traditionally been very poor, and an attack by a pack of wolves (on the cattle, mind) could mean the death of families.

[Lyrics Of War]

Really? That's odd to me as southern sweden was one of the last places to get fully christianized. Hell they ran the king of northern sweden out of the area for trying to impose christianity. I dont think they fully converted till the 1300's, though I may be mistaken on that.

The folk stories about werewolf flame outs are likely from after the christianization, and likely the late middle ages, after the maellus malificorum came out. Though I'll admit I am not entirely familiar with the later history of Sweden as a whole. Though I'm sure everyone here would be curious to hear indigenous folk tales of werewolves, no matter what time period they originate from!

Also goes with the first chapter in werewolf histories, which discusses how each culture has its own history for werewolves. There is no singular werewolf history, but rather a series of histories fully dependant on local folk tales. A differing example would be the latvian werewolves, which according to some of the accused, claimed to fight witches in the name of god with their beastily powers.

Edit: as an aside, the Danes apparently believed that stretching horse placenta across 4 posts and climbing through it made child birth painless, but your son would be a werewolf. A daughter would be a nightmare.

[Lyrics Of War]

Hi! I wrote from Raiding & Trading through to the Fire-Touched Lodge and a couple of the blurbs on other lines. I'm happy to answer questions if you have them. Apologies if "dense" was a bad thing

Perhaps you could write up some more lodges unofficially? Though I may just abuse the poor get of fenris again.

[Gnomish American]

One could say it's less about the letter of technology and more about...

*sunglasses*

the spirit of technology.

*cough*

No, bad Arc! No biscuit! *hands over a box of biscuits under the table*