The Pack is here!

[Monghani]

Welp, that's certainly something I'd love to see play out in a game.

[Acrozatarim]

I wrote the Screaming Moon Gift with the Lodge in mind

[nofather]

Probably have to rename the Screaming Moon Gift, but damn a Cahalith with those Facets would be terrifying in the Lodge of the Screaming Moon.

I don't see why it would have to be re-named. There would probably be a lot of cahalith with it in the lodge, but it wouldn't be confined to them. There's probably other, similar Lodges with different names as well.

[Monghani]

Probably have to rename the Screaming Moon Gift, but damn a Cahalith with those Facets would be terrifying in the Lodge of the Screaming Moon.

[Daigotsu Max]

Yeah, this book should be celebrated for dispelling the alpha myth if nothing else

[Ana Mizuki]

Second chapter.

Chapter 2:

The intro text does a good job at explaining the purpose of the differences between a pack's core members. If one can't do it, there is another for the job. That in general is the purpose of this chapter, detailing what job each packmember has.

I must note, however, that the way the werewolves are discussed in the comparison section in this chapter is making them sound a bit too alien for how the game actually goes. Given most Uratha can still hold jobs and can have merits like Allies and Contacts, I didn't get the feeling Wolf-Bloods really have to be that much of trouble easing the relationship between uratha and human pack members.

Still, given how Wolf-Blooded were essentially Kinfolk 2.0 in 1st ed Forsaken, this is a VERY welcome change for the better in terms of duties. They do gruntwork, but they also aren't without their own place and praise.

Human packmates, I still feel do make a pack seem a little too coporate like. And they do feel more like allies/contacts. But, this is my own take, and the book does a splendid job at justifying them.

Spirit packmates are a lovely mess, and I love how they are useful. But also a very very bad idea in the long run. Wolf packmates, to me, deserve points for just noting that the Alpha Myth is a myth. And how Forsaken (who do basically function like a captive pack) might affect them negatively. But they are still portrayed not any less viable as humans, which is really nice.

As for other supernatural packmates, as I've said so many times before; I love that they are presented as an option as good as any. As someone who had done crossover group in owod for years, the section on them reminds me a lot of my own experiences. I also like that there is not a sense that crossover is wrong in the text.

The way each supernatural splat is given reasons why they work and don't work is nice. Especially for Changelings, who seem pretty much an ideal fit. However, I also like that Uratha might as well sell them to the True Fae as well. It gives a feeling that each uratha pack is different, and there is no hard and fast rules to being one.

Also, Promethean nuke is funny as hell.

Pack tactics have basically been given an injection of steroids. I'm not much of a mechanics person, but I love the idea of themes and the hunting nature of each pack dictating them.

[Bunyip]

Mentions in the sample totems talking about how this is suitable for a new pack and that is suitable for an established pack makes me wonder - do packs ever "trade up" for new totems, or do they stick with and improve their old one as long as the pack exists? If they -can- trade up, how does it actually work, both mechanically and in play? How does your average totem feel about being replaced?

The best I can offer is that it depends on the pack and the game. Some packs will be emotionally invested in their totem and will never consider letting it go. Others may view the relationship as a business transaction and will renegotiate with an alternative provider if the totem isn't meeting expectations. Others may have strange (to outsiders) rituals, where they keep the totem for a fixed period of time before ceremonially hunting it to offer its corpus as sacrificial tribute to the new spirit they've selected as totem.

Sometimes packs will lose their totem. Enemies (and other packs) will target the totem during times of conflict, as the loss will throw the pack into disarray. If the totem strays too far from its protectors, all manner of harm may befall it. It's still a member of the spiritual hierarchy, and other spirits may prey on it out of hunger (or jealousy). If the pack survives, it will need to find a new totem.

Side question: can totems offer Pack Tactics as benefits?

By RAW, no. Pack tactics rely on the synchronising of Uratha instincts. Even packs without a totem can use Pack Tactics.

That said, it shouldn't break the game if your ST decides to allow it.

[Kirby Jerusalem]

Mentions in the sample totems talking about how this is suitable for a new pack and that is suitable for an established pack makes me wonder - do packs ever "trade up" for new totems, or do they stick with and improve their old one as long as the pack exists? If they -can- trade up, how does it actually work, both mechanically and in play? How does your average totem feel about being replaced?

Side question: can totems offer Pack Tactics as benefits?

[Bunyip]

Overkill was meant to only allow the primary actor to take advantage of the zero defence and extra damage. The rest of the pack confuse and distract the target, leaving it vulnerable to the primary actor's attack.

Oops, there's a caveat on what I posted above. p.61 says "Other effects last until the werewolves have benefited from them a single time, or for the rest of the scene, as appropriate to the tactic."

So, Overkill is meant to only apply once, *but*, as with all pack tactics, once the tactic has been successfully performed, the pack can choose to delay using the effect until later in the scene, and need not rely on the primary actor being the person gaining the advantage. It still only applies the once, though.

(I'd forgotten some of the extent to which I'd deliberately built a lot of flexibility into Pack Tactics. Packs can and should be able to use them to set up a bunch of 'triggers' to give themselves the advantage later in a scene. For example, an ambush tactic could set up a variety of dice pool benefits or Condition/Tilt effects to hit the prey with once they've fallen into the trap.)

[Monghani]

Oh, now I get it. That's pretty understandable.

[Monghani]

Ooooh, that makes way more sense. I mean, its a clear set-up for the Pack to toss out an Efficient Killer use at the drop of a hat. I mean, at bare minimum thats 15L not counting the buckets of dice you'll get from the teamwork roll.

[Bunyip]

I'm confused by that as well. Is the chart for Pack Tactics Price Boosters missing an option where you can spread the benefit to the group? If so, would it just be +1 to the cost? That appears to be the only way Overkill makes sense.

I see on the page before that it has this line:

Pack tactics that provide beneficial effects to the pack (or allies) are contested by a dice pool equal to the number of people the tactic could potentially affect.

So, at risk of sounding completely braindead, what?

Say you create a hacking tactic that adds 2 dice to Computers for the next action. Normally only the primary actor benefits. It's a one-dot tactic. You can take additional effects to cover more people, so you take the effect 4 more times to cover when several of the pack are present. This is now a five-dot tactic.

Even though the tactic is beneficial, and the pack doesn't want to resist it, the scope makes it harder to perform. Because it affects five pack members, this tactic would have a Resistance of 5 and subtract 5 dice from the performance roll.

[Bunyip]

So am I missing the part of the Pack Tactics section that talks about how many Uratha are actually needed to perform a given tactic? Because I can't find it anywhere.

Edit: why does Overkill allow for every packmate to ignore defense for one attack each? From what I read, each effect can only be taken advantage of once; if you strip out the resistance debuff and the two lethal damage, would you be left with a one dot tactic that allows every packmate to ignore defense for an attack?

Minimum Uratha is three (kind of hidden away and implied in the table on p.62), but if more Uratha (and qualified Wolf Blooded) are present, they have to take part unless the tactic specifically allows some to be freed.

Overkill was meant to only allow the primary actor to take advantage of the zero defence and extra damage. The rest of the pack confuse and distract the target, leaving it vulnerable to the primary actor's attack.

[Bunyip]

What's the limit? If I got a total of 20 dots invested, they can get up to 20 dots in influence? Above their rank, too?

The Totem merit dots are a completely separate system to spending Experiences on the totem. If your pack invests 20 dots in the totem, they get 20 dots of whatever that gives them. They can then spend Experiences to expand the totem further.

[Monghani]

I'm confused by that as well. Is the chart for Pack Tactics Price Boosters missing an option where you can spread the benefit to the group? If so, would it just be +1 to the cost? That appears to be the only way Overkill makes sense.

I see on the page before that it has this line:

Pack tactics that provide beneficial effects to the pack (or allies) are contested by a dice pool equal to the number of people the tactic could potentially affect.

So, at risk of sounding completely braindead, what?