The Pack is here!

[nofather]

I figure it doesn't. But, you know, since we have Mage, I dare ask that someone show the teeth on the claim. Not because I doubt it's wrong, but because I fully trust my ability to show how a werewolf can subvert that exceptional capability.

Goonies never say die, and neither do werewolves.

I think Cap the Well, Invoke Bane, Slumber and Opener of the Way are things you can't really pull off as a werewolf. But apprentices don't have a wide variety of abilities as it is.

My problems with the section do bleed over into the Mage group, now that I've mulled it over. Maybe it's the mood? It seems wary. In the vampire section it warns of war, in the mage section that, 'interfering with a mage is a great way to find out which fates are worse than death.' It sort of takes things from, 'Fuck yeah, us against the world, kick ass and take names,' that was in the core book to 'Okay it's a scary world out there guys, so be careful and try not to make these people mad at you,' which is sort of a bummer. The fluff was solid, though.

[Kirby Jerusalem]

Well, it's not an Apprentice spell, but the ability to open up a gateway to the Shadow anywhere is pretty sick. That being said, I'm not in the camp that thinks that Werewolves are lacking any necessary tools - I feel like neither is better nor worse, they have entirely different capabilities.

[ArcaneArts]

It doesn't really get into specifics, just says, 'Apprentice mages can work spirit magic even elder werewolves can’t.'

I figure it doesn't. But, you know, since we have Mage, I dare ask that someone show the teeth on the claim. Not because I doubt it's wrong, but because I fully trust my ability to show how a werewolf can subvert that exceptional capability.

Goonies never say die, and neither do werewolves.

[nofather]

That aside, what sort of spirit magic are we talking about?

It doesn't really get into specifics, just says, 'Apprentice mages can work spirit magic even elder werewolves can’t.'

[ArcaneArts]

How else do you interpret Apprentice Mages being able to perform spirit magic even an Elder Werewolf can't do? Being intimate with the Shadow isn't much when someone can come in and wreck that shit.

It's a difference between fish and submarines. The submarine might technically be a superior specimen, but the fish belongs there, and doesn't have to worry about prep time or something suddenly bursting the bubble.

That aside, what sort of spirit magic are we talking about?

[Monghani]

How else do you interpret Apprentice Mages being able to perform spirit magic even an Elder Werewolf can't do? Being intimate with the Shadow isn't much when someone can come in and wreck that shit.

[atamajakki]

Not going to lie, I tend to heavily dislike Mages and how they outshine Werewolves in their own background. Having a Werewolf supplement go out and straight up say that is...pretty disconcerting to say the least.

That's not what it said, thought? At all?

[Monghani]

Not going to lie, I tend to heavily dislike Mages and how they outshine Werewolves in their own background. Having a Werewolf supplement go out and straight up say that is...pretty disconcerting to say the least.

[Ephsy]

So, how does the Increased Potential for Totems work? Every new totem dot they get they gain a new Influence and/or Manifestation?

[Errol216]

Vampires would make pretty good Elodoth-substitutes, yeah.

Prometheans are, in the end, not likely to be jerks the way vampires are. They might devastate the landscape, but it's unlikely that that's something they wanted to do.

I kinda want a story about a Promethean going from place to place, changing packs, but always keeping in touch with the road wolves while in transit. Sure, you'll never see him again, but you'll hear about him from your fellows all the time. And, maybe, when you're in need, he'll show up.

[Yossarian]

I see, and appreciate you letting me know the idea behind it.

Ain't no thang.

[Paradim]

I think the Beast part is arguable, especially considering Beasts practically shed fear spirits, but Prometheans have a much worse affect on people and their environment and are still lauded as useful. And as for being jerks, most supernaturals will fit that bill, if it's not Vitae it's something else but they all have their own obsessions. The vampire section seemed to place more of an emphasis on the negative than any of the others.

Prometheans are lauded as being useful when you point them in the direction of your enemy, not when they're in your territory. So the Created are basically as useful as nuclear bombs. Something you want dropped on enemies you don't ever want to see again, but something you're very leery about having in your basement.

[nofather]

I wrote the vampire section, so I can kind of give you a sense of what I was going for. To some degree, the crossover sections are written with a werewolf bias, and for my money, most Uratha have a pretty dim view of vampires. Not even close to all (or else the section wouldn't be necessary!), but generally werewolves don't have much patience for the kind of selfishness that comes with the Kindred condition -- i.e., they hunt for themselves, not to any particular end. That being said, I wasn't trying to go explicitly negative; it's more what Leliel was saying, in that vampires are jerks (but they're my favourite jerks!)

I see, and appreciate you letting me know the idea behind it.

[Yossarian]

I think the Beast part is arguable, especially considering Beasts practically shed fear spirits, but Prometheans have a much worse affect on people and their environment and are still lauded as useful. And as for being jerks, most supernaturals will fit that bill, if it's not Vitae it's something else but they all have their own obsessions. The vampire section seemed to place more of an emphasis on the negative than any of the others.

I wrote the vampire section, so I can kind of give you a sense of what I was going for. To some degree, the crossover sections are written with a werewolf bias, and for my money, most Uratha have a pretty dim view of vampires. Not even close to all (or else the section wouldn't be necessary!), but generally werewolves don't have much patience for the kind of selfishness that comes with the Kindred condition -- i.e., they hunt for themselves, not to any particular end. That being said, I wasn't trying to go explicitly negative; it's more what Leliel was saying, in that vampires are jerks (but they're my favourite jerks!)

[nofather]

Vampires, generally, are jerks. Jerks who are honest about being jerks, jerks with a good justification, but they're still assholes who also happen to be living addiction metaphors. Shortcuts tend to sour when the path to shortcut takes a detour through someone whose entire priority system revolves around repeatedly draining the blood of other people and making a good environment to take said blood in.

Even Beasts, at least, aren't biologically geared towards making all the mortals around them miserable if they're eating well, and in fact the Dark Mother would prefer it if they nudged the world into becoming a better place via fear stick. Vampires make the world worse as a matter of course.

I think the Beast part is arguable, especially considering Beasts practically shed fear spirits, but Prometheans have a much worse affect on people and their environment and are still lauded as useful. And as for being jerks, most supernaturals will fit that bill, if it's not Vitae it's something else but they all have their own obsessions. The vampire section seemed to place more of an emphasis on the negative than any of the others.