What would an 'endgame' book look like?

[atamajakki]

Werewolf has one of the smaller lines in 1e, but covered the majority of interesting topics that needed to be hit and then some. While 2e has some work to do in detailing the new focuses with the edition shift (The Pack was a great example of this), updating the necessary material (the Pure and Bale Hounds, many Lodges, etc), and of course adding more new fun stuff (Lodges, Gifts, Hunting Grounds), I feel like the one topic that feels most in need of existing is an 'endgame' book. Werewolf is one of those games that has the potential to ramp up into Tier 3 and Tier 4 plots - you have apocalyptic alien super spirit monsters as the primary antagonist in the core book! - but it could use some help paving the way to such high-end threats. What happens to werewolves when they hit the upper bounds of Primal Urge is a topic I've been curious about since 1e, and with the great stuff in Equinox Road and Imperial Mysteries for Changeling and Mage, respectively, it feels like a shame to not plump those possibilities for new material.

Am I crazy in wanting this? Is there anything huge I'm missing for it? Are there books that Werewolf needs more than this?

[Geckopirateship]

We are getting an "Elders" book for Requiem, so that's another one to add to the list. Once that's out, the case for an endgame WtF book will be even stronger.

[nofather]

Am I crazy in wanting this? Is there anything huge I'm missing for it? Are there books that Werewolf needs more than this?

It's been talked about in many threads since second edition came out and has been something fans have wanted since peeks from open development.

So far we've only been given hints of it in the various books and examples like Lycaon-Ur and the repeated term 'bodhisattva predator,' and how some feel a drive to become something more like the Firstborn or Father Wolf himself. Presumably a throwback to the werewolf's Pangaean roots, with more modern sensibilities.

I won't speak for everyone but it's something much of the fandom have asked for.

[Lyrics Of War]

you could try to snipe ideas from the apocalypse book from werewolf the apocalypse. Might be what you're looking for. Pretty sure its under 3rd or revised edition.

[salientmind]

I think it would relate back to finding Pangea, corrupted by the death of father wolf, and trying to address issues that might bring.

[Gullinbursti]

I would love to see at least a whole chapter on Pangea and Pangeans

[AForgeForThoughts]

Yes I would like to see Pangeans return as well, or at least outline some scenarios about how some could be involved in a modern game. Hosts finally reassemble to bring back their Pangean originator. A Pangean with the "Time" arcana threw themselves into the future. Things like that.

[Acrozatarim]

An elders/endgame book exploring ideas for how bodhisattvas work, examining the Firstborn etc with the intent of using them as active characters with agendas that the players operate at the same level as, and some high-end global threats/goals, is all stuff I'd love to take a crack at. One could even go for grand, apocalyptic war if one wanted, with the void beyond the Warden Moon's guardian stride portrayed as a colossal invasive threat gearing up for a final showdown with Luna and her spawn.

[S. Brechen]

I once played in a werewolf game... well, a game that started as a solo werewolf game, then included another werewolf (from another dimension), a mage, a shaman (that became an immortal), and me as a vampire (that was used as an experiment and had had a Helion forced in her, making her able to walk in daylight).

In the climax of the first "season" of the game, Azlu started reforming, the player who had started the game found out he was the reincarnation of Father Wolf, we had a fistfight with Azlu before trapping her on the other side of the gauntlet, which bought us enough time to conduct a ritual that wiped out all Azlu in the world.

Then, the game stopped when the GM, while he had planned other stuff, started feeling like he wouldn't be able to handle it.

[Simon Darkstep]

In our current game (Changing Breeds/Werewolf), I'm steering us toward a plateau at the Feral Heart 4 or 5 level.

If we get an endgame book, I'd honestly we rather get an updated Changing Breeds first, especially one that unifies the highly confusing double terminology between CB and WtF. Then we can have an endgame book that would cover all of the Pangaean Spirits' half-children.

[ManusDomine]

I once played in a werewolf game... well, a game that started as a solo werewolf game, then included another werewolf (from another dimension), a mage, a shaman (that became an immortal), and me as a vampire (that was used as an experiment and had had a Helion forced in her, making her able to walk in daylight).

In the climax of the first "season" of the game, Azlu started reforming, the player who had started the game found out he was the reincarnation of Father Wolf, we had a fistfight with Azlu before trapping her on the other side of the gauntlet, which bought us enough time to conduct a ritual that wiped out all Azlu in the world.

Then, the game stopped when the GM, while he had planned other stuff, started feeling like he wouldn't be able to handle it.

That sounds like a game so hilariously awesome that it cannot go wrong.

[LokiRavenSpeak]

Level "elder" werewolf are tricky because with the long period of himbernation they are difficult to play and the example of setting that i found were of solitary one.. The one time i had a game reach that far i rule it from the following logic.

The rulebook tell us that the closest thing to rank ala WtA is spiritual rank which goes

Renown 0-3 = Rank 1
Renown 4-7 = Rank 2
Renown 8-12 = Rank 3
Renown 13-18 = Rank 4
Renown 19+ = Rank 5

But also you have to raise your auspice renown as no other renown can be higher. So this creates a interesting contrast to WtA. In that game a elder werewolf was master of his auspice, a seasoned leader of the garou nation who guided his people in his role designated by Gaia.

But there is no such leadership in WtF, the epitome of urathas is father wolf and he/she didnt need no auspice, father wolf was the apex predator doing the job of the 5 auspices by himself.

Numerically it also made sense. An Werewolf could max his primary renown to be able to raise the others. For example an elodoth with honor would raise his renown to 5, that would make him a rank 2 spirit. Now he needs to get renown in other areas to get to rank 3-5. Culminating in 5 in all of them for a total of 25.

With that logic in mind what i did is say that along with the himbernation and essence bleeding once reached the peak of auspice renown and Primal Urge 8 then auspice stop being important. If the elder werewolf had 5 in a out of auspice renown he could get that auspice lunar gifts.

Thats how i handle it the only time it came to that as normally my players care very little about Primal urge. Also there is the Milestone gift for ideas on epic level stuff, most of them range from very useful, to marginally usefull to shitty, like the Storm Lord one from tribes of the moon. Seriously a +2 to one packmate and -2 to another? Thats a milestone gift? The Iron master is 10 times better what the hell?

[Satchel]

But also you have to raise your auspice renown as no other renown can be higher.

No longer the case in 2e; it's just pretty heavily incentivized due to greater Gift rewards and the Trait being a component of the dicepools for Hunter's Aspect and the "neutral" Clash of Wills.

[S. Brechen]

That sounds like a game so hilariously awesome that it cannot go wrong.

Yeah, in addition to that, the shaman accidentally sold his soul to a demon (Inferno style, not the Descent), and when he got himself killed, me and the mage had to get the demon to release his soul so he could complete his immortalness. The demon would have played a bigger part later on. We also had to go to the realm of the dead from Geist to get one component for the ritual. Oh and the werewolf from another dimension was an amnesiac that looked just like Darius (from Wolfsbane) the first player had killed before. After dealing with Azlu, we went to the Temenos to fix something big, but we had to enter and exit through his psyche, which revealed he was actually the head or a head scientist of the SCP foundation in his home universe and that he had originally embarked on a quest to save the multiverse. Did I forget something, oh yeah, the first player (before I joined) fought and beat the Blood Hound, the servant of Thurifuge, and the last session announced the arrival of strix in town.

And yes, it was all very fun. It kinda seemed like this is a GM who felt he had to exploit as many stuff he could find in the books he had as fast as possible. It made for very fast paced campaigns (visiting one of the kingdoms of the realm of the dead was like one session) where the stakes could shoot up instantly and it was pretty involving. He also liked to experiment a bit, like building a session as a series of flashbacks (with varying success, but that's experimentation for you). Thing is, sometimes, he just wouldn't know where to stop and would realize a bit late he might have bit more than he could chew.

[LokiRavenSpeak]

No longer the case in 2e; it's just pretty heavily incentivized due to greater Gift rewards and the Trait being a component of the dicepools for Hunter's Aspect and the "neutral" Clash of Wills.

Yup, though the only time i had a game to reach that level was in 1st. Still to reach rank five you need renown in all as they only get to 5 max.