Language rules?

[IanWatson]

When we were putting the core rulebook together, we considered various "Linguistics" Backgrounds from previous Storyteller/ing games. Sometimes they added one extra language per dot, but that's only six languages, and some people know a lot more than that.

Some games basically doubled per dot, while others went with language families instead of individual languages, but those had their own issues.

Finally, we just asked ourselves if there was any value in limiting the number of languages you could learn in a game that is essentially about hypercompetence, and we decided the answer was "no." If it makes sense for your character to know a language, they probably know it, although you may want to limit it according to your Intellect, as per the suggestions in the Rosetta Stone Gift on TC p. 201.

[Jefepato]

Finally, we just asked ourselves if there was any value in limiting the number of languages you could learn in a game that is essentially about hypercompetence, and we decided the answer was "no." If it makes sense for your character to know a language, they probably know it, although you may want to limit it according to your Intellect, as per the suggestions in the Rosetta Stone Gift on TC p. 201.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with this per se. In a game like this, it's fine not to have any actual limit on languages, especially considering how broad a lot of the existing skills are.

...except that from my perspective, the very existence of an Edge/Gift/Mega-Edge that costs actual points in exchange for the "you know all the languages" effect implies that without spending points on one of these special abilities, you can't know all the languages and therefore some limit exists.

I dunno. It's not really that big a deal in practice -- it's easy enough to spitball an appropriate guideline if a player really wants to know how many languages their character can know without Polyglot. (If I were GMing, I'd probably just set the limit at Intellect+Humanities and call it good.) But it feels wrong not to have an actual limit in the books if players are expected to spend actual character resources on abilities that allow them to bypass that limit. >_>

[Mateus Luz]

The existence of super abilities that allow you to speak any languages over a less precise number of languages is completely valid.

If the GM says nobody speaks that language in the team, NOBODY SPEAKES THE LANGUAGE, period, even if you speake 500 different languages, there are another one that you don't and you will not undertand it. Except that guy, he speakes all/any language, so he can understand people talking, no matter the language.

A Talent/Nova/Psiad capable of understand any language will understand aliens, will understand dead languages, will understand non-organic languages (Klingon and elfish, for example), language of intelligent gorillas, they can even understand droids talking in binary. A guy that speakes 500 languages cant... maybe he can speak some of them, but not all, and knowing TC, you can find any of this languages (if not all) in your adventures.

[Eternl Knight]

...except that from my perspective, the very existence of an Edge/Gift/Mega-Edge that costs actual points in exchange for the "you know all the languages" effect implies that without spending points on one of these special abilities, you can't know all the languages and therefore some limit exists.

This is kind where I come from. If there is the requirement to spend character creation/xp resources on getting extra languages (e.g. the way Superiors can) then there is (or should be) a baseline from which the characters upgrade.

P.S. still haven't had a chance to discuss language rules with my group. Came down with COVID.

[Planguy]

Yeah, if there are rules for languages in one form there needs to be a full set of rules. Like what if I want my character to be able to learn an alien language when he is stuck on an alien planet? There should be a rule for that other than me having to come up with a house rule. There should at least be an experience cost for learning a new language, considering that a Superior can learn a new language for a single point of experience. Considering that in order for them to learn a new language they need to spend an experience point it doesn't make sense for other characters to just learn new languages with a handwave. Superior's are supposed to be, well, superior, so why would it cost them resources to do something when other characters could do it at no cost?

The current rules are like if you assumed that your bow has an unlimited number of arrows because it's cumbersome to keep track of ammunition, but at the same time you have spells that allow you to create ammunition from nothing.

[Jefepato]

Oh, wow. I thought I had been pretty diligent about looking at the different books before I posted this thread, but I totally forgot to look at Superiors. That's a bit of an issue.

I definitely don't think an individual language should have an XP cost attached (especially not after you've already bought and paid for a special ability to help you learn languages!) unless it's some kind of secret language a normal person would never have the chance to learn.

I'd be fine with a setup like this:
- Normally characters can know up to (Intellect+Humanities) languages (if it makes sense for their Paths and background, but the GM should be permissive)
- If that's not enough for your character concept, spend one Edge point on Polyglot and you can know as many non-secret languages as you want
- A nova with Universal Translator (or whatever) can pick up even secret languages and codes very quickly if exposed to them (you might want to require a slightly more difficult roll and/or a longer exposure time for Talents with Rosetta Stone or whatever, since Universal Translator has higher prerequisites than most of the language-related powers)

But the most important thing is to be consistent.

The current rules are like if you assumed that your bow has an unlimited number of arrows because it's cumbersome to keep track of ammunition, but at the same time you have spells that allow you to create ammunition from nothing.

And now I'm having flashbacks about "Blessing of Ammunition" from first-edition Scion.

[Dataweaver]

I'd be inclined to go with: you know one language by default; you can learn [multiple] languages appropriate to your Paths on the cheap (e.g., a one-dot Edge that lets you pick up several languages all at once, or a Skill Trick that lets you puzzle out what people are saying with some effort); but if you want to be fluent in pretty much every language you run across, you're going to need a Gift, a Mega-Edge, a Superior power, or something Telepathy-related.

[Eternl Knight]

So I had the conversation with my group, outlining how Superiors, Talents, and Novas work with languages (via their powers/edges) and the experience points that come into it.

Our house rule going forward for standard character creation, is that you can sacrifice an Edge dot for up to two additional specific languages appropriate to the Paths they have. This can be done multiple times, if desired, up to a language maximum of either [ Intellect + Culture ] or [ Intellect + Humanities ] (whichever is highest). After character creation, if they want to learn a language, they treat each language they learn like picking up an Edge dot (so either 2XP to learn a Path-justifiable language or 3XP to learn any other language). Also, it should take time to learn (a few months of game time at least) and a contact to teach it to you.

On a game level, this still gives a (large to massive) benefit to the template special abilities focused on languages. Rosetta Stone gives Talents multiple language families they know fluently and can puzzle out anything else with an [ Intellect + Humanities ] roll. Universal Translator gives Novas the ability to know every language instantly. Polyglot allows Superiors to learn a language temporarily with a scene's worth of effort (or permanently for a low 1XP per language). This addition doesn't diminish these abilities whilst still allowing characters to be reasonably multi-lingual without (mechanical) difficulty.

On a pure mathematical level, at character creation, years of study/speaking the language is represented as 1XP per language (given Path Edges cost 2XP to get/upgrade). After creation, it's a reasonably significant investment (costing a normal or Path Edge dot) reflecting that fluency in languages comes from significant study (not a few weekends away shooting at beer bottles)

Bit more in depth than my original proposal, but my players wanted something better balanced against the language powers/edges/gifts that already exist.

[GM Janus]

I was thinking about this issue the other day and figured I would toss some words onto the existing thread to see what others thought.

One of my big issues with Languages in a lot of RPGs is the fiddly bookkeeping that goes on with it and the problem many gamers have in knowing what are "good languages" to have. Factor in things like dialect knowledge, how euphemisms shape human communication, and even how your accent can influence things and you have a lot of information that may or may not be an interesting element of your story. And as a GM that prefers Story over Simulation, I was going to address Languages like this in my game:

The group agrees on 1 shared fluent language, and this is your character's Primary Use Language. This is the language you have full immersion in and understand without any significant difficulty. Any complications due to accent or misunderstanding are at the Player's option and may result in a Momentum reward from the GM if they feel it advanced the story in some way.

You have the option of taking 1 Path Language. This represents a period in your life that encouraged you to speak and understand another language at a language considered Fluent. The GM may call for a roll when using this language in high stress situations or dealing with obscure dialects or archaic expressions.

Additional languages can be taken as Skill Specialties in almost any skill, as long as you can come to an agreement with the GM on how it was learned as a part of the experience in that skill. Your knowledge of that language is considered to be linked to your level in that skill should you ever need any numeric value to measure against.

I was also thinking about having an Edge that addressed languages, but didn't like how over specialized it felt in low level use and how much bookkeeping there would be in high level use.

[Shepherdboi]

Additional languages can be taken as Skill Specialties in almost any skill, as long as you can come to an agreement with the GM on how it was learned as a part of the experience in that skill. Your knowledge of that language is considered to be linked to your level in that skill should you ever need any numeric value to measure against.

I was also thinking about having an Edge that addressed languages, but didn't like how over specialized it felt in low level use and how much bookkeeping there would be in high level use.

There are at least two language based Edges. Polyglot is a one-dot Edge granting fluency in virtually every modern language as well as any ancient languages justified by your background, while also letting you pick up entirely new languages within a week. Flawless Accent is a one-dot Edge that lets you fake every single regional accent of a single language and adds 1 Enhancement to appropriate Skill checks.

The are at least two problems with granting languages as Skill Specialties. The first is that you only start getting Skill Specialties at three dots in a Skill, and virtually no children have three dots in any Skill, but can still learn multiple languages. The second is that Skill Specialties cost 3 xp, as do Edges. Why buy one language with a Skill Specialty when Polyglot gives you almost every language for the same cost? If I want to use a Skill Specialty to make me better at languages, I'll get one in Linguistics so I gain Enhancement on rolls to decipher all unknown languages.

[Mateus Luz]

Kids would learn a second language as Path language related to their origin, and I would suggest any path that have the Polyglot on its path list would allow a second path language (you don’t need to have it, just having it in the list gives a free path language). It would remove the issue with multilingual kids.

What about instead of Specialities, Skill Tricks, as you can have any number of skill tricks related to a skill, but not specialities. And the idea makes sense, you could try to communicate due to the skill, but you learned a skill trick and now have no issue to communicate using the language related. You still have accent (that would be removed with the edge), but now you don’t have problems dealing with the language.

I do think that book keeping can be a bit annoying, but it’s not a big deal if the game goes around a multitude of languages and would be interesting to keep track of them.

Also, in settings that language are so important, Polyglot can be more expensive, maybe 2 or even 3 dots edge instead of 1.

[Shepherdboi]

Kids would learn a second language as Path language related to their origin, and I would suggest any path that have the Polyglot on its path list would allow a second path language (you don’t need to have it, just having it in the list gives a free path language). It would remove the issue with multilingual kids.

Kids can learn a lot more than two languages without actually being polyglots, and the previous poster only allowed one bonus language for a single Path. How are these kids learning multiple languages if they only get Native + Path + Skill Specialties they don't qualify for?

What about instead of Specialities, Skill Tricks, as you can have any number of skill tricks related to a skill, but not specialities. And the idea makes sense, you could try to communicate due to the skill, but you learned a skill trick and now have no issue to communicate using the language related. You still have accent (that would be removed with the edge), but now you don’t have problems dealing with the language.

Skill Tricks have the exact same drawback as Skill Specialties; you can buy one for each Skill dot of three or higher and they cost 3 xp each. They're actually less useful since Skill Tricks are almost always supposed to have a momentum cost.

I do think that book keeping can be a bit annoying, but it’s not a big deal if the game goes around a multitude of languages and would be interesting to keep track of them.

Also, in settings that language are so important, Polyglot can be more expensive, maybe 2 or even 3 dots edge instead of 1.

In settings where languages are important, you should just let players know several languages without having to jump through a bunch of hoops. In settings where languages aren't important, you should also let players know several languages without having to jump through a bunch of hoops, since the number of languages they know isn't important. Err on the side of letting them feel like highly competent action movie stars.

[Mateus Luz]

Why can’t a kid have the Polyglot Edge?

Specialities are limited, you can have 1 at 3 dots, 2 at 4 dots and 3 at 5 dots, while Skill tricks are not limited that way, but you are right about the cost of momentum.

I agree with you about not bothering with languages, I would say as a SG the character is talking a weird language, and nobody understand, just because there are too many languages to be learned. If you want to avoid being left without understanding you pick polyglot and job is done.

[GM Janus]

The justification in my mind for Skill Specialties is that a Specialty cost 3 XP, hands down. But Edges cost 2-3 XP per-dot, and I have yet to find the Polyglot Edge folks have been referencing in my PDF of Trinity but I assume it is at least a 2-3 dot value.

Additional reasoning in my mind for my method: There are many children that learn additional languages, but it is immersion and consistent use which makes it Fluent. It has been my personal experience (US, Midwesterner, born in the 80s), that while I and many of my peers were taught Spanish, French, German, etc very few turned it into something that stayed with us as a viable means of communicating effectively. Most people I know in my professional life in software development that are multilingual are using it because of how important understanding the language is for a specific part of their life... my software programmer colleague rated at Enigmas 3 has German skill specialty to help them communicate with the Europian team on building feature XYZ.

What I may not have made clear was that I also support in-the-moment skill tests to see if you have enough general language understanding via Humanities or Culture or Larceny (etc). That lets you catch enough meaning and context to figure things out, ask for clarifications, or use translation software effectively.

Zooming out a bit: I agree that GMs should make the call of how vital language understanding is for their game, and not get hung up on "the only proper way to do it". This was just the way I was planning on tackling it for my campaign should I get players asking about it.

[Shepherdboi]

Why can’t a kid have the Polyglot Edge?

Nothing prevents children from taking Polyglot. What I wrote was that it is entirely possible for children (and adults) to know several languages without being polyglots.

Specialities are limited, you can have 1 at 3 dots, 2 at 4 dots and 3 at 5 dots, while Skill tricks are not limited that way, but you are right about the cost of momentum.

Yes, they are limited that way. Skill Tricks have the same limit on numbers as Skill Specialties, as per Trinity Core Rulebook page 45:

When you reach level 3 in a Skill, you can purchase one Skill Trick for that Skill. As your character advances in the Skill, you can purchase an additional Skill Trick for each Dot above 3 as well.