Aberrant: Defense and Quantum Deflection?

[econclark]

Hi All,

Maybe I am missing something and perhaps you can help. In Aberrant, is there any real usefulness to Defense Mega-Edge or Quantum Deflection Power?

Defense Mega-Edge adds quite a bit to (potentially) to your Defense (pool). This can be helpful, but seems like nothing compared to the Scale that would be applicable to even moderately high quantum powers. Probably, still useful against baselines though. I can see a high Quantum nova taking one dot of this, but that is the only real use that I am currently seeing.

Quantum Deflection seems infinitely worse, costing two Quantum to add successes to the nova's Defense (once again no scale).

Even a scale 2 attack has a good chance at overcoming these Defensive enhancements as far as I can tell, and that can be gained by the Heavy Weapon tag.

I am almost 100% sure that I am missing something that could make either of these useful/relevant in the presence of scaled attacks. What is it, and how do you all deal with this?

Thanks in advance!

[Slagheap]

Don't forget that defense successes eat attack successes and apply before soft armor. Even if these powers don't prevent a character from getting hit, they (along with even moderate soft armor) can turn a devistating attack into an annoyance.

[Mateus Luz]

Well, Scale enhancements in most attacks apply only to cause injury and critical, so they can be used after you beat defense, so both powers are useful against all attacks, as long as the atackers dont have lotos of enhancements on their attacks.

Then you may ask, "but where is the restriction of using enhancements only to deal damage?", and I answer, "well, its the only way to make difference between precision and power, and it is alighned to what weapon tgs related to power do (apply only to cause injury/critical stunts)".

For exemple, the cannons of a ship are only useful if the target is not moving fast, if it moves fast, like a airplane, you need a faster, but less powerful, weapons to hit it, like machine guns.

[Florin]

So, a few things.

1. Defense successes can be used for more than just buying the Dodge stunt. Granted, that's usually the most effective way to spend them, but if someone is punching you, rolling away may be a better option, especially if their Composure is low.

2. Systemically, attacking should always be better than defending. It makes combats end in a reasonable amount of time.

3. Mateus is citing a house rule. Trinity Core specifically gives an example of having one net power Scale giving 2 Enhancement to the attack roll, not just buying the Inflict Injury stunt. (p. 111 under Comat and Scale) That said, it might be a good house rule. It certainly weakens power and might Scale, which would lessen the threat of rocket tag, but it might run afoul of my point #2.

4. Adding Mega-Dex to your attack character makes Defense and Quantum Deflection even more useless, because Mega-Dex reduces the difficulty of Dex-based actions 1 for 1, and Defense is a difficulty. So, your [Combat Skill] + Dex attacks are against reduced Defense.

[Mateus Luz]

Sure, its a house rule, but Scale is not something that apply all the time, it is described it applyies only when relevant.

Scale is not an symple enhancement that apply all the time, it is up to the SG to define if it apply or not according to the situation, and its how it is described in the book.

[econclark]

It doesn't really matter though right, because there is not a separate "hit" and "damage" mechanic, you succeed on the roll, you then get your enhancements to your successes to purchase whatever is happening.

This is where my problem with Defense Mega-Edge and Quantum Deflection come in. If there is pretty much any scale, they quickly become useless (There is still the chance that they may allow the attack to be avoided by like diving behind a wall or something, but absent that, they seem pretty useless).

Mateus, you can easily have an entangling (or other effect) Quantum Attack that would add scale to areas other than cause injury or critical (as they may not cause damage at all, only entangle).

Quantum Deflection is much worse in my opinion because it also costs 2 Quantum per turn, This would cause many novas to quickly burn through their available Quantum points trying to protect themselves and they will still be getting smacked around.

[econclark]

I agree that Attacking should be on average better than defending, but that the mechanic for "dodging" doesn't scale, or really seem to work for that function is my problem. Toughness or Quantum Field do scale and are a much better choice if a nova actually wants protection. The fact that there is scaling defense but only in absorbing, not dodging seems strange and makes me think that I miss something.

Speaking of absorbing, Absorption is a pretty cool power, but even that doesn't scale. It can still be really useful, but the main use I see for it is in replenishing Quantum points, not actually defending. This one is tougher because if the Quantum points gained scaled, it would almost certainly cause overcharging problems, but as it is now it doesn't do much as a defensive power.

That being said, I still love to include it in certain builds that would otherwise be Quantum Point poor (always have Quantum Powers active etc.)

[Eternl Knight]

Speaking of absorbing, Absorption is a pretty cool power, but even that doesn't scale. It can still be really useful, but the main use I see for it is in replenishing Quantum points, not actually defending. This one is tougher because if the Quantum points gained scaled, it would almost certainly cause overcharging problems, but as it is now it doesn't do much as a defensive power.

FWIW, I don't see Absorption as being a "defensive power" so much as a "recharging power with a cool defensive side-effect". Yes, it "cancels" successes to charge your nova, but the point is to give the nova an in-theme source of flux-free Quantum Points to spend. Think "Bishop" or "Gambit" of the X-Men comics. An interesting combination of the two allows for a becoming nigh-on untouchable, as both are reflexive powers with one charging up the other as needed (in addition to fueling other powers).

[Eternl Knight]

On your original post - yes, there are some sub-optimal powers in the list that if you're min/maxing a character really aren't worth taking. Quantum Deflection as a power that seems to be one of them. With a couple of house-ruled tags it could be made into something (e.g. one that allows the nova deflect attack successes onto other combatants as a Complication), but RAW it's not cost efficient compared to the Toughness or Defence Mega-Edges.

The Defence Mega-Edge isn't bad, but it requires Mega-Cunning/Mega-Dexterity as a prerequisite and, as you point out, the ability to apply Scale to other defences (such as Quantum Field) AND requires a roll means that it doesn't grow with the nova quite as well with them.

The issue really does come down to the fact that, RAW, the attack roll & it's enhancements isn't split into "to hit & damage", but is all encompassing. Without house rules, the enhancements given to weapons to represent the amount of damage they do is rolled into their ability to hit what they're aiming at. Makes things quick at the table top, but results in oddities like bulky, heavy weapons being able to hit agile/nimble targets just as easily as faster weapons. The bane of simplified mechanics everywhere.

[Mateus Luz]

My point on Scale only applying to Damage is less about only damage than I properly explained.

Aberrant doesnt use a "Precision Scale" that is where the scale would apply to aiming the power itself, and would allow you to aim on targets too small to be properly seen, like Enterprise aim attacks to the engine of a ship thousands of kilometers away or a martial artist picks a fly with chop sticks. That scale would be granted by Mega Dex.

Most powers would grant Power Scale, that is basically how powerful the power is, for damage it would be how much damage it can deal, in entangle would mean how powerful the entanglement can be, etc. The problem is, all scale can only be opposed by other scale, undersand that for the characters, fighting scale is hard, but for general people its impossible, they lose automatically, so damage will be resisted by durability, but entangling, for example, will have nothing to resist directly, sure entangled will have more or less difficulty to get free from the whatever is entangling them, but that is when scale apply to entangle, a higher scale entangle attack would create a higher scale "goo" that needs higher scale might to breack free. Other powers will use scale in different ways, but the idea is basically Scale is not a free enhancement to the attack, the way scale apply changes according to the way power works, but in a general way it will not apply to your precision.

Again, that is a house rule I set based on my experience with Abberrant 1e, when you rolled Mega Dice to hit people but also to activate powers, what resulted often in the need of mega attributes to be able to use the powers effectively. I try to keep the enhancements down as much as possible to make them meaningful, and try to use scale as narratively as possible to make it meaningful as oposed to a need to be able to play. Sure, power scale will kill people intantly, but only if hit, so there is still a chance to escape, otherwise it would be boring.

Again, I am not saying you will have a hardtime fighting mobs in the street, you should be able to overpower hundreds of them, but the idea is to make the game fun.

[econclark]

OK, let me ask a related question then.

Quantum Aura, how exactly does that work? The way that I read it is that it would work much like Environmental Anima in terms of dealing damage. Is that the case? Neither of them scale, but if my reading is right they would bypass "most" armor/defenses (unless it has the Environmental Tag). So without armor/power with an Environmental tag it would deal Quantum Aura damage (- whatever is resisted by a Stamina+Resolve Roll)? This could be very powerful! However, when confronted with an armor/power with the Environmental tag, it would deal the same damage but would be resisted, and then soaked by the armor, so if the armor has any scale, this power becomes useless?

At least with Environmental Anima, you can take the variable tag and make complications/barriers as needed, but if a simple/cheap tag will completely negate your power (and anyone that knows they will be facing you will prepare appropriately, is Quantum Aura useful for anything other than baseline mooks who decide to hit a "flaming or something else" nova with their bare hands?

[Dataweaver]

Scale doesn't negate damage unless you have at least three more levels of it than the attack has. So there's plenty of room for armor with the Environmental tag to defend against Environmental Anima without flat out negating it.

[econclark]

Yeah, but at the damage rating is equal to Quantum Aura dots, so at Quantum Aura 5, between successes on the Stamina+Resolve roll and a 2-3 points of soft armor, even armor with no scale could easily negate the damage from a 5 dot Quantum power. With even one additional level of scale (scale 2) it becomes almost a sure thing.

[Eternl Knight]

Yes, rules-as-written, the Quantum Aura power only works against, low-Scale opponents. As there is nothing stating otherwise, it is at Scale 1, and therefore no matter how many points you put in it, will be nothing more than a tickle to any Durability Scale 4+ targets.

Frankly, you have to embrace house-rules to get what you want out of Trinity/Aberrant when it comes to Scale. It's inconsistent throughout the rules and some things have patently either been untested or ignored in editing. Great system, but you have to paper over the cracks.

In the case of this particular cracks, our house rule is that the power can have a "Scaled Damage(X)" power tag that sets the Damabe Scale = 1 + X, where X can be no higher than Dots in the power itself. It's ot been playtested beyond my table, but could work for yours.

[Mateus Luz]

Not really. Indirect damage works very different from regular attacks, it has no scale basically, but at same time can cause a lot of damage all the way around.

It works by having a Damage Rating that is the number of injuries that it causes to anyone, no matter scale, but you can roll to reduce the damage, basically. So, unless you have some kind of defense against indirect damage you will be damaged, no matter what. There are a few options I dont recall, including Mega Stamina for some forms of damage, that reduce the DR of indirect attacks, but I dont have the book here to tell you what are the options.

I personaly cosider the DR as the scale of an indirect damage, not that it really works as scale, but it can cause many injuries to the target in a single "attack", without even rolling an attack.

By the way, its not a houserule, it just dont interact with scale the way we expect at first;