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[Ana Mizuki]

This is why I generally just ignore the divides. Especially as some fera are very specific (kitsune, nuwisha) while others include ALL the snakes and ALL the spiders. So I generally go by animal location and make up house rules for Qualmi not from NA and Kitsune not from East-Asia....

[Ana Mizuki]

Oh I agree and it HAS been done well, in NWoD.

I was just commenting on Lashet's tendency to bash the garou while elevating the vampires. In the WtA forum....

[Ana Mizuki]

Most likely Lashet likes vampires a lot and doesn't like that garou kill them on sight....

[Ana Mizuki]

This is an aside, but since the PC IS going this way, make them read the Book of the Wyrm 20th edition. Because Wyrm games tend to go darker than typical WoD, so it would be good for the player to know beforehand what is in store.

[Ana Mizuki]

Very much so....

[Ana Mizuki]

You should also ask him if he is prepared to have the whole of the Nation declare him an enemy.

Regardless if he is using the bane or not, killing your packmates for your own ego does mean he is very much on the chopping block still. Even Shadow Lords, who do some dark things for power and Gaia, do not kill their bonded packmates for their own gain only. If they MUST take out a packmate, they will usually direct them to an unwinnable fight....

[Ana Mizuki]

So in essence; The character has made it known to Banes AND his pack totem that he now serves the Wyrm and murdered his pack FOR the bane.

Yeah, he is not going to stay a GW. His pack totem is going to inform his sept of his actions at least. Since one of his packmates was an Uktena, their tribemates could try to call their spirit as a witness.

But there is one major issue above all; HOW does he plan to get out of the Dark Umbra if the packmate that took him there is dead?...

[Ana Mizuki]

I feel the biggest thing to unpack here would be; In what way did this character join the Wyrm? Because maneaters mostly start out as desperate and the eaters of the death start trying to seek knowledge.

So did this GW out and out decide he wanted to serve the Wyrm? If so, what was his reason?

If he just decided to take Wyrmy actions, what were those?

If the answer is the former, then I'd say he cannot keep his GW status as he has officially declared to serve the Wyrm. Choice like that has deep spiritual implications.

If, on the other hand, he...

[Ana Mizuki]

But that is the thing, IF the PCs were to do that, it would break the game entirely. For the reasons you outlined....

[Ana Mizuki]

Yeah, exactly, the limits do not come from the story they come from the meta. As MyWifeIsScary noted, low-level stuff can be fun but eventually you want to try higher level stuff. Just to see how it'll go.

To bring this back to W5, what if the PCs want to bring the Nation back? What if they, despite seeing all the weaknesses of the Nation, still think it was better than nothing? The previews hint that you can't because the more renown you get the more jealous competitors you will have. But then it creates the question of why wouldn't the elders want to join in rebuilding the Nati...

[Ana Mizuki]

Even if it is a narrative tool, it still is indicating that having truly elder vampires around is rare. I am glad that the Gehenna War is getting more focus, but personally it still reeks of a place to put too powerful PCs to pasture.

With the hunters, even if Society of Leopold was treated as a bunch of paranoid arseholes, you could still play one.

My issue is that there are artificial limits placed on PCs and instead of giving the players the freedom to decide themselves who is in the right, options like hunter orgs and sabbat are entirely removed from the pool....

[Ana Mizuki]

That and let's face it, no matter what motive the animal control officer has, taking out rabid animals is still a good thing. Just because the SI might not have the best intentions, in terms of human safety they are still taking out things that can and will hurt and hunt humans....

[Ana Mizuki]

Yet there is the Beckoning and the Jyhad war. If you grow too powerful, you feel drawn to a war raging all around the world. A war that the PCs can't join in at all. That is what I mean by the limits because VtM did not have such a limit to how old or how far the PCs could climb. There was no off-screen war raging on that the PCs could not join.

With hunters, it is good to remember what exactly a hunter is. Someone who kills supernaturals, who does not consider the monster as worthy of personhood. But everyone has a reason WHY they hunt beyond the basics. Essentially, hunters are...

[Ana Mizuki]

Yes, you can have clout and wealth in the mundane human world. The problem arises when you want the same power in the supernatural world, then the mechanics halt your progress.

I am glad that the system no longer treats low supernatural status the same as low human status, but unless you play a game focused on the human world you will run into the glass ceiling of WoD5 status quickly....

[Ana Mizuki]

Given I've had many experiences over the years of players having wildly different takes on aspects of WtA written down, that sounds like a nightmare scenario.

I get the idea that it is after, a more DnD focused free-for-all scenario. But that really isn't what draws people to WoD or WtA ESPECIALLY....

[Ana Mizuki]

As much as that is true, in the revised Gazer tribebook it is made very clear that the Hengeyokai see the Stargazers like the Stargazers saw the other garou tribes. As uncouth barbarians. Basically, the Beast Courts will treat the Gazers as guests, sure. But they will not give them any REAL jobs, as the Gazers just aren't civilized enough for that.

And given what I know of the Beast Courts' human countries, that tracks.

As for the topic of this thread; The Fenrir were removed mostly due to Paradox getting its fingers burned by the messes in V5. The playtest and its VERY...

[Ana Mizuki]

In terms of First Change ages, I agree they should be allowed later. I've had so many players in online games come around wanting their character to have had a life before garou stuff and changing stuff to fit the setting often looks clumsy. I don't mind characters starting early (since I play Lupus and Crinos Born most often) but I do feel a wider range will do more good than bad.

In terms of camps and fellowships, I do want them to be like Forsaken lodges. Since there is no central garou authority anymore, we should be free to do groups like the Swarm or any of the Pure lodges.

[Ana Mizuki]

Absolutely, and that is the core of the problem as seen even in NPCs in some sourcebooks; The way WtA limits the range of PC backgrounds can be stifling for writers and so they ignore it....

[Ana Mizuki]

I think you are overthinking this. The reason people want their garou to have had a human life is why vampire pcs have had it. They want their ahroun to have been a military officer/police officer, they want their theurges to have been priests etc. Basically the human job is the concept they are after and WtA does not support it....

[Ana Mizuki]

Aside from the moral implications, many people want their characters to have jobs or decrees. Basically, they want their characters to have had a life -before- becoming garou....